Brené Brown: The Quest For True Belonging | Chase Jarvis LIVE

Brené Brown: The Quest For True Belonging | Chase Jarvis LIVE

– Hey, everybody, how’s it goin’? I’m Chase Jarvis. Welcome to another episode
of the Chase Jarvis Live show here on CreativeLive. You guys know the show. This is the show where I
sit down with the world’s top creators, entrepreneurs,
thought leaders, and I do everything I can to unlock
their brains, unpack actionable, valuable insights with the
goal of helping you live your dreams and career
and hobby and in life. My guest today, she’s been on the show. This is her third time. No one else has been on this many times. And you know why. She is a researcher, a
storyteller, the author of so many number one New
York Times Bestseller books. Daring Greatly, I’m not gonna
talk about the other books. I’m gonna talk about, this
is the book that you have to get right now, and my guest is the one and only Brene Brown. Yay. (upbeat instrumental music) (audience applauds) They love you. I’m coming to you. Hi, hi, hi.
– Yes. Hi. I’m afraid to move, or
I’ll knock my mic off. – I know. We’re in a loft apartment
in Austin, Texas. I know it looks like a
very polished studio, but that’s a squeaky chair. (laughs) We knew it was gonna happen. Thank you very much for
coming from Houston. I’m very happy to be with you. I missed you. It’s been like almost a year. – It’s been a year. Thanks for coming to Texas. – Incredible. Congratulations on another book. – Thanks. – I can say unequivocally that your work helped me more as a
creator than any other work that I’ve read, any modern
work that’s not a biography. It’s not a how-to. It’s about courage. And Daring Greatly was the
first thing that I really, I probably, I’ve read that five times. I use it as reference. The Gifts of Imperfection. What’s another one? – Rising Strong. – Rising Strong was the last one. – Yeah. – This one, I’m on my second read. You sent this to me two weeks ago. Thank you very much. This is gonna be another reference book over and over and over. What made you write it? – So I’ve always really
been interested in belonging and the topic, and I started
writing about belonging in 2010 with The Gifts of Imperfection. But as the world has gotten
crazier and a little crueler, I became very interested in
this idea again of belonging ’cause I think I’ve struggled
with belonging my whole life. I still struggle with it. – You went into it in
the first like 30 pages in a way that I didn’t
think was like possible. It was so amazing that you
opened your heart up that much in the first 10 pages. – It was really hard. I’m not good at it. – I think you actually
wrote a sentence, and like, I just read that, and that was very hard. – Yeah. – I’m sobbing, or something like that. – Yeah. – So sorry. – No, it was just hard. I just, I wanted to understand more about it. There was a quote from Maya
Angelou that’s really been kind of, as we’d stay in
Texas, stuck in my craw for like 20 years. – Oh, I love it. – It’s stuck in my craw. It really just irritated
me, and I love everything about Maya Angelou. She’s been a hugely
important person in my life, but she’s got a quote that
says, you’re only truly free until you belong everywhere,
nowhere, which is everywhere. The price is high, and
the reward is great. And I thought, what the
hell does that mean? You belong everywhere and nowhere. Like, belonging, this is the
stuff that we’re wired for. – Rooted connection. – Here’s the one thing
I can tell you for sure that I know from my research. In the absence of love and belonging, there is always suffering. And I feel like I really
experienced some suffering around belonging in my life. And I thought, what does that mean? You’re only free until you
belong nowhere and everywhere. It sounds poetic, but it
reads like bullshit to me. Like, it cannot be true. – Yeah. – So I wanted to dig into it even more. And I had no intention
really of writing a book set against the backdrop
of the world today and how really crappy
we are to each other. – Yeah. It’s strange right now. – It’s strange right now, but it turns out that I don’t think you
can write about belonging and connection really without being honest about what we’re up
against with each other. And so I just started digging into it, and I kept asking this question. Like, men and women who have
this really strong sense of true belonging, what
do they have in common? And is there any validity to this idea of belonging everywhere and nowhere. – Well, damn. And like you talk about drill team. – Yeah. – Trying out for drill team. It’s so, so powerful. The human, that we’re
hardwired for connection is when you’ve experienced
connection, you know it. – Yeah. – And after you’ve experienced connection, and I think we all have, when
it’s not there, we all suffer. The fact that it’s so relevant right now. I feel more connected to
some people and disconnected to others than I ever have before. When I look around and
other people say that, my bullshit meter is like, eh. – Yeah. – But you sew us together in
a way that no one else can. A, thank you. B, what has that meant for you research, and what does it mean for
us as citizens and humans? And I know there’s a
framework in the book here. I’m not trying to get
you into the framework. What do we do? – I think, for me, what
was really surprising was after I spent a year
trying to understand where we are as a country
and really globally. This is happening across the world. And what I learned was
pretty shocking to me that at the very same time
that we’ve sorted ourselves into these ideological bunkers,
that we really actually demographically, we don’t
go to school and worship and live by people who
are different than us as much as we used to. And the more sorted we
become, you would think the more connected we become because now, I’m just with people who are like me. – Your algorithms are
tuned to show you people who are just like you. – That’s exactly right. Yeah, it’s like the Amazon book thing. If you like this, you like this. If you agree with Harvey, you’ll
really love Pete, you know. But it turns out that behind
those ideological bunkers it’s not that we’re deeply
connected to each other. We just hate the same people. – That’s so powerful. – Yeah, and hating the same
people doesn’t really mean jack when it comes down to
belonging because just because you hate the same people
doesn’t mean that you’re gonna show up for me when
I’m throwing up at chemo, or you’re gonna go pick
up my kids from school when I’m running late or have a flat tire. It’s like, it’s not real connection. It’s not super meaningful deep connection. And so we’re getting more and more sorted. And this is a crazy fact. In 1976, only 20% of
counties delivered landslides for the presidential nominees. Like only 20% of people lived in counties where the whole county delivered. – Got it. – Trump, Clinton, 80% of
counties delivered landslides for one or the other. Like we are really completely sorted. – We literally flipped,
and 80/20 flip, wow. – But if you look in 1976,
the rates of loneliness, they were much lower than they are today. So we’re more sorted, but we’re lonely. You know, loneliness is serious stuff. – Would you talk about
it’s like isolation? Self-identified isolation? – Yeah, it’s self-identified isolation. Like, you’re on the outside looking in. And it’s really interesting. John Capaccio, who’s a
researcher in Chicago has got this amazing book. I mean, just his research
on loneliness is incredible. But he talks about how
primal loneliness is for a social species,
that when we’re hungry, our body says, you’re in
danger if you don’t eat. You’re in actual physical
danger if you don’t hydrate. Pain says there’s tissue damage somewhere. You’ve got to heal. And loneliness says, you
need social connection, or you’re in trouble. And when I first read
that, I was like, okay. That was like very moving and well done. Kudos to you. – Nice little pa-tah, judo. – Yeah, but a little kind of hyperbole. But then when you look at the research, loneliness is a greater
predictor of early death than smoking a pack of
cigarettes a day or obesity. – Wow. – Like, loneliness kills people. – Wow. – It is a huge predictor of mental health, physical health, and early death problems. Yeah, I mean. – That is, sorry, my mouth is still open. – Yeah, no. – Wow. – Yeah, so it’s like,
so sorted and lonely. And so the question for me
was like, how did we get here? – I like to, to me, the audience of
people who watch this show largely identify as creative
entrepreneurs or aspire to be. I put ’em in two groups. Zero to one, people who are
just sort of like realizing that it’s okay to consider
yourself creative, and that that’s a really
important part of being human. And then there are people
who are already identified. And for each of those communities, the concept of belonging,
the concept of bravery, the concept of putting
yourself out there is all very, very, it’s maybe even
more near and prescient than in some other communities because being a creator and being the
man or woman in the arena, which is what a lot of
people come to this show and pay attention to me about. – Yeah. – The thing I used to
really worry about saying is that it’s more
problematic now than before because I can like, hey,
look at time is long. And there’s been a lot
of, like it’s the safest time ever to be alive. Just the reporting on
violent crime is up 10,000%, but it’s actually all other
violent crime is down. But the psychology, the loneliness,
all of the divisiveness, the research that you just
cited about who our tribes are and how we spar, it really
is a very divisive, divisive? – Either way, I think. – Nice. – I go back and forth. – It’s a divisive time. I think that makes for great art. And I would never accept that culturally just to get great art
because it does create, I think it does provide
the impetus for great art. Help the people who
are listening right now understand how they can
use creativity or use any of the tools that are part
of them or their community to transcend loneliness and get out of it. You got four things here. You got like a framework of four ideas. – Okay, you gotta hand me your book. You gotta hand me this book. You’ll have to give me
a minute to find this. I want to– – You gotta quote? – No, I want to talk to you
about something about art. – Okay. – Because it’s so weird. When I did the morning shows and stuff when I was doing the pre-interview. They’re like, what’s this
deal about creativity and art in here? You seem passionate about it. But it’s something that I wanted to– – While you’re looking to find it– – I found it. – Okay, right before you
do, I’m gonna say it. So if you haven’t watched art,
we have two earlier talks. One, actually if you Google
my name and your name, I love that it’s on the
header of your website. – Yeah. – Under videos. – It’s one of my favorite videos ever. – You were, I mean,
you’re on fire right now. You were absolutely on fire then. It was the first time we’d ever met. – Yeah. – I was so blown away, and
the folks in my community really rallied around
it, and I think, again, I try and help people unlock
that part of themselves. – Yeah. – And when I read that
bit that you’ve got about, I didn’t know that on the
morning shows you talked about that, but it’s powerful stuff. So walk us through it if you can. – No, I didn’t talk about
it because the people on the morning shows were like, what is your thing about
creatives and art in here? And I was like, it’s so important
because here’s the thing. We are lonelier, and we
are more disconnected than we’ve ever been, and it’s polarized. But art can save us. (laughs) No, this is what I write. Art has the power to
render sorrow beautiful and make loneliness a shared experience and transform despair into hope. Only art can take the holler out of, I tell the story about Bill
Monroe, a bluegrass musician listening to the holler that’s
returning from World War I and incorporating it into
his high lonesome music. And I said, only art can take
the holler of a returning soldier and turn it
into a shared expression and a deep collective experience. Music, like all art, gives
pain and our most wrenching emotions voice, language, and form so it can be recognized and shared. The magic of all art is
the ability to both capture our pain and deliver us
from it at the same time. Okay, that’s y’all creatives. That’s, yeah, no, that’s you people. I mean, that’s like if you
think we’re gonna get out of this shit show without
art, you’re mistaken. – So the time is upon us. What, sorry, I’m still
thinkin’ about that quote. Still getting shivers. So here we are. I’m asking people to go inside themselves. The best art comes from in here. And especially as we’re
trying to find our way. We spend so much time
looking at what other people are doing, and it’s great
because you can remix, but the best way for one
to stand out is to share your own experiences because
it’s about being different, not just better in a world of creativity. Do you have any, can you be prescriptive? We’ve been pretty theoretical right now. – Yeah. – We’ll get into the
wilderness and what that means. I don’t want to only talk about
the book because your work is vast, but can you get
tactical for a second? – Yes. – So why don’t you be prescriptive. I come in. I sit down. And you’re my counselor. And I say, I’m kind of
feeling disconnected. I’m a creator. I’m an entrepreneur. I’m trying to build things. I feel alone. I don’t know what I’m doing. Help. What can you do to help me? – So probably from a
caveat, I have to say, I’m not a therapist. So I would say if you’re in
my office looking for that we’ve gotta go together somewhere else. – Okay, okay. – But here’s what I would say. The thing that I learned about belonging that I think is so powerful
that I cling to as a creative is that belonging is not
something we negotiate with the external world. It’s something we carry in our hearts, and as it turns out, that
the men and women who have the highest level of true
belonging, not only find sacred being apart of something bigger, but they have the courage to stand alone. And the reason why art an
creativity are gonna be so important to our healing
and to whatever comes next in our world is every creative knows what it’s like to stand alone. And so creatives have
this incredible ability when they find the
confidence to be able to find beauty and value in being
part of a creative community but also the courage to stand alone. And so what I would say
to you is understand. I would say this as a therapist. I would say it as a fellow
creative that’s found my own pain in success in
equal combinations, yes. Is be a part of a creative
group and community. But don’t ever believe for
a second that you are not going to have to stand on your own. You will have to be alone at some point. It is what we’re called to
do, and to get to a place where you can find, that’s
what Maya Angelou meant, I think, when she said you
belong everywhere, nowhere, which is everywhere because
if you carry belonging in your heart, it’s not negotiated
externally with other people. And I think the thing
that’s really powerful is as a social species, the
reason why we feel lonely is because we are neurobiologically
wired to be with each other, and as a social
species we need art. And we need music. And we need photography. And we need to see the
artifacts that allow us to find our humanity in each other. – Wow. – And that’s art. That’s music. Oliver Sacks says music
pierces the heart directly. It needs no mediation. Like that is one of our ways out here. – I think that, so I don’t
often quote Jeff Bezos, but for the entrepreneurs
out there, he said, you have to be willing to be, what was it? You have to be willing to be misunderstood for long periods of
time as an entrepreneur. – Oh, god, you do. Oh, my god, I hate that quote. It’s true. – It’s so true. I think of, so confessionally,
me and the crew had lunch across the
street before you arrived, and we had your book out. We were swapping quotes and
ideas and favorite passages, and we each recounted briefly the things that were the most successful
in any one of our careers or the best films we’ve
ever made or you know, breakthroughs or companies or whatever. And 100% of them had
massive misunderstanding. People didn’t get the thing
that you were gonna do or that you were standing for. And so A, I believe it’s true. B, it takes me back to
something you shared in a previous interview,
which if you’re tuning in for the first time, this is
the first time you’re seeing us two together, you
talked about your Ted Talk. And the short back story
is that Brene gave a talk about vulnerability, and
you put yourself out there. And I think you were
probably, I remember something you were telling about like,
it’s hard to get invited to parties when you talk
about what do you do? – Yeah, shame and
vulnerability researcher. Like, she’s fun. – Okay, great, I’m gonna move on to the next person at the party. – Yeah. – So tell me about your own
journey of being misunderstood or maybe even feeling disconnected and what you feel like
has brought it back. – I think I’m not unlike a
lot of creatives in I owe probably my career and my
creativity to not belonging. And so because I didn’t
belong growing up ever, you know, we moved all the time. And we moved really hard, fourth grade, sixth grade, eighth grade. Always the new girl. I was always different. It forced me to become a pattern finder. So I became someone who could
seek and understand patterns in people’s behaviors,
in people’s emotions, and I could predict
what they were gonna do better than they knew
what they were gonna do. And so I think my creativity,
like a lot of people’s creativity, was born of
being on the outside. Like if you go to my
house, you’ll see I collect outsider art because I, and I
never even thought about that until just right this minute, but I like the view from out there. – Yeah. – And so I think for me
like with the Ted Talk, I’ve just never done anything
that’s turned out to be valuable that wasn’t just
scared shitless to do it. Like, everything I’ve ever
done that’s ever really made a contribution I have felt
alone in doing it and afraid. But alive. – That’s a really interesting, go on. Tell me more about that alive. Alone but alive. That’s sort of like the wilderness. – It is a wilderness. – The metaphor for the book is, let’s see if I get this right. – Yeah. – Rather than asking, I’m
gonna try and check my work. – Do it. – There’s a poetic narrative
about it being wild and risky, and you have to prepare to go there. It’s also stunning, and so
there’s an obvious really clear connection between that and
putting yourself out there. There’s risks and rewards
and beauty, but there’s interesting twist if I get this right, that it’s not that you
are in the wilderness. It’s that you are the wilderness. Explain that if you would. – Well, I think what I have found is that after the first time, and it
only really takes one time. After the first time that you
opt to brave the wilderness, you pull away from what
a group of people thinks. Maybe it’s your creative community. It’s your critics. The first time you pull away
and find power in standing on your own, I think your
heart is marked by the wild. I think you belong in
and into the wilderness in a different way because
every time after that, when you choose fitting in
over belonging to yourself, it’s painful, and so to me,
the whole idea is not just navigating the wilderness,
which I think every poet and theologian and
writer over time has used the wilderness as kind
of a lone journey thing. It’s not just about
navigating the wilderness. It’s about becoming the wilderness. It’s about becoming. I am going to be on my own a
lot, and it’s going to be okay because there is beauty
and strength in that. And it’s not that I
won’t ever find great joy in being a part of something. But I will always belong to
and believe in myself first. – You have, you told me. I don’t know if this was a secret. I think at the time you
told me it was a secret, but you hadn’t shared it before. It was that you keep a list of the people that actually matter to you. – Yeah. – It was around when you shared
the famous Roosevelt quote about the man in the arena. I say man, man or woman in the arena. And it’s a list of five
or something people that these are the people that
you don’t want to disappoint, and everyone else, you’re gonna– – Yeah, my little, it’s a
one inch by one inch square, and in there are the names of people whose opinions of me matter. Like if you’re in here,
your opinion matters. If you’re not, I just
cannot waste a lot of time worrying about what you think. And so the people on that
list are people who love me not despite my vulnerability
or my imperfection but because of my
vulnerability and imperfection. And so those people are
the people that really I care what they think. Steve, number one. You know, my Kate. And not because he’s a,
’cause he’ll say, yeah, you just screwed that up. You’re gonna have to make amends. It’s gonna be shitty and
hard, but I got your back. But yeah, that was a big mistake. Like, so I think– – How do you reconcile the list of people that you care deeply about
with also standing alone? Do you feel like those people are there when you’re standing alone? – Yeah. Those are the people that
understand that sometimes they stand alone, and I support them. Sometimes I stand alone. And it’s not easy, but there’s this great, I asked a friend, Jen
Hatmaker, who went through this really hard time last year. She has kind of big
Christian, she’s a pastor. She has big Christian audience. And she came out very strongly pro-GLBT, and she really got just eaten alive. And so I asked her to
write about her experiences in the last chapter of the book. And she just writes
something so beautiful. She says, but it’s okay
out here in the wilderness ’cause it’s where all
the artists and prophets and creatives have always lived. – Yes. – You know, I mean, and I think it’s– – Identity there. – Yeah, it’s just, you know,
and I think even if you look at this is before right
now when I was thinking about being with you, I
thought about the kind of four practices of true belonging. And there’s a couple things
that I think are really interesting from a creative perspective. The first is, the whole
book is a freakin’ paradox. Everything, like belonging
to standing alone, why? Each of the four practices are paradoxes. And one of the things I love
is that no one can straddle the tension of paradox
better than a creative because that is the
creative energy, right. – Yeah, you defined paradox in the book. You wanna take this one? – Well, Carl Jung says that it’s our greatest spiritual gift. The paradox is the only thing
that becomes remotely close to describing the human experience. And that’s art. That’s the tension of be fierce
and kind, tough and tender. It’s that tension, so when
I think about the practices, think about art. Think about all great art. The first practice of true belonging. People are hard to hate close up. Move in. Who shows us a glimpse
of what we think we hate and can make it beautiful
better than an artist? Really. Really through photography. – Film, cinema. – Film, I mean, I’ve been on
this whole belonging film tear, just looking at what film makers do. Like I just watched one of my favorite. It’s one of my favorite
new rom-coms, The Big Sick. – Oh, yeah. – Yeah. – Incredible. – Yeah. Who takes us closer to
people we believe we hate and then shows us their humanity in a way that’s so frustrating
for us than photography or a great film or a song? Like who does that? And then the second practice
is speak truth to bullshit. – Be civil though. – Be civil. But who more than artists
call bullshit on the things in the world that are unkind and untrue? – Yeah. – I mean, honestly. You want to say, well, I
think everything’s really better in Syria than we thought it was. Talk to some of the
photographers who changed our whole understanding. – Yeah, it can be very clearly argued that photography in
particular changed the opinion of the Vietnam War. – Oh, for sure. – There’s a handful of
like five photographs that shifted the American
psyche over to like, no. Done with this mess. And I think the same is true. I think Syria is like maybe
never before have we had that much access like
real-time live video. So hard core. I think that’s a phenomenal point. That’s been two of the four. – Yeah, and think about what Ken Burns is doing right now with Vietnam. – Oh, yeah. – Everyone that I know who
has seen an early production of that said it will fundamentally shift how you think about our country. But who can do that? Can a politician do that? – No. – Can a social scientist do that? A researcher? No. A creative. – Yeah. – A film maker because what
creatives do is they bring truth to us in a way where we
recognize our own humanity. – It’s sort of like they
wrap it in something that is digestible in the moment. – Yes, that’s real to us. – Yeah. I’ve never thought of that. – I mean, that’s why when people are like, help me understand the
creative part of this book and what you talk about. I speak so powerfully
about art and creativity. It’s that these are actually
the leaders of this movement because if you think you’re
going to show the world your perspective on something
and do it surrounded with people who are like-minded
and cheering you on, then you don’t understand what
it means to be a creative. You’ve been watching too
many beer commercials because that shit only
happen in beer commercials. When you decide to become
a creative and share your perspective of the world with us, you sign up for the wilderness. – Kinda scary. – Oh, god yes. – It’s scary. – Oh, god yes. I’m not thinking you should
do it ’cause it’s the hardest moments of my life writing this book even though I have a
team and tons of support. When it comes out, I’m taking the hits. I’m taking the criticism. I’m taking the, why this? I’m taking the, you cuss too much. I’m taking the, you know– – What movement are you standing for? – Yeah, what do you believe in? – What do you stand for? – You’re too conservative. You’re too liberal. But that’s what you sign up
for when you’re a creative. And then the next one,
the next practice is, so it’s people are hard to hate close up. Move in. Speak truth to bullshit, but be civil. The third one, hold hands with strangers. And that is a chapter almost
exclusively on creativity, shared creativity, and
what I call collective pain or a ministry of presence,
just being with people in pain. There’s not a single
person I helped in Houston that I could actually stop
the water from coming in and taking away their homes. But I could be with them in those moments, and I think a ministry
of presence is really about being with people
in pain so that a person’s broken heart can know it’s
connected to every other heart that’s been broken across time. And no one delivers on
that like creatives. – It is, and that’s the gift. Like, whether it’s, the
media or the medium, like you just used cinema. I think of how many, the
connection of moments in your life with music. (laughs) – Oh, yeah. – When I hear like Pretty in
Pink from that movie in 1986, and smell, it’s almost Proustian like food has the ability to do that. So that’s the third thing, I think. Let’s go back just to
remind us of the third one. Hold hands with strangers. – Yeah. – But what’s the other half of that? Hold hands with strangers. – It’s just hold hands
and then with strangers, which seems weird, but here’s the thing. I describe like kind of the
world we’re in right now as a, it’s a spiritual crisis. And when I say spiritual crisis,
people get really squirmy, and they’re like, oh, god. Is she talking religion, which I’m not. ‘Cause I’m not sure that
didn’t bring us here in some way, dogma
religion, but spirituality is really simple definition
to me from the data. It’s the belief that we’re
inextricably tied to each other, that you and I are
connected in fundamental way that can never be disconnected. We’re all connected to
each other inextricably. And while that is not
breakable, it is forgettable. You cannot break human connection, but you can forget about it. And to share moments, to
hold hands with strangers, to be like, I just remember this moment four or five months ago. I’m at a U2 concert, the
first one I took my kids to. Super exciting. It was so great. I’ve seen them 15 times. Hitchhiked through Europe
with nothing but the War cassette tape and a Walkman. – I did the same thing. – Yeah, I mean, it’s like yeah. And I remember when one
of my favorite songs came on from the War album. My daughter and my son who
were standing on either sides of me, grabbed my hands,
and I just got goosebumps. And I looked down, and my son said, they’re playing your song. You know, and I just wept. A friend of mine sent
me, my friend, Eleanor, sent me a picture from the
U2 concert that she went to in New Orleans, I think, last week. And she put U2-charist. It’s like the Eucharist but U2-charist. (laughs) And it does have that
meaning for us, right. – It does. – And it’s not just that. It’s these moments where you’re
standing next to a stranger. Texas football right down
the street from here, and you’re hugging the person next to you ’cause it’s a pick six, and
they run it all the way in. And it’s amazing. There are just moments
that remind us not only what’s possible between
humans and even strangers, but I think more profoundly what’s true about what’s between us. That’s the truth of how
we’re built to be together. – You talk in the book
about, and I think elsewhere in your research, about
like the moments after 9/11. – Yeah. – As a time of bonding and yet
how temporary even that was. And do you feel like this
framework is a way to try and stay ’cause those
moments, that’s to me, when I read that part of the
book, I was thinking like, just think of it was always like that. – Yeah. – If we all could, ’cause
what you’re doing when you’re saying like, I see you. I see you for who you are. You see me. We’re all in this together. Those are just very simple, I think, basic human connections, but
you give that or you receive that gift automatically in those moments as opposed to having to
manufacture it or work for it or sort of like keep it in
your mind so that when someone cuts you off in traffic, you
still wave like your dad. – Yeah, not the other wave. – Not the other way around,
not the one finger wave. – Yeah, one finger wave. That’s so true. – Do you feel like what
I was grokking by the end of the book is that it’s really the four, what do you call these
four things, principles? – They’re just kind of four practices. – Practices. – ‘Cause you have to
put ’em into practice. – Daily. Just that I saw a very
clear path to be able to experience that on a daily basis, which brings me to the fourth one, which to me might be my favorite. – It reminds me of Kate, your wife. – Oh, I’ll let you share. – Strong back, soft front, wild heart. That we need a strong back. We need to be courageous. Soft front, we need to
be vulnerable and open. And we need to have that wild heart. And I think the big practice
from that is, and I think this is such a great important
message for all of us, and especially for your
audience of creatives. Stop walking through the
world looking for confirmation that you don’t belong because
you will always find it. Stop walking through the
world looking for evidence that you’re not enough because
you will always find it. Your self worth and your
belonging is not something that we negotiate externally. It’s something we carry
in our wild hearts. And if we spend our lives
looking everywhere we go for evidence that I don’t
really belong in this medium. I’m not really an artist. I just do this on the side,
and this is my side hustle, but it’s not really my job. Or we keep comparing ourselves. You will find exactly
what you’re looking for. – Yeah, what’s the psychological
phenomena when you buy a car, and then you start
seeing it everywhere ’cause you’re looking for it? – Part of it’s confirmation bias. – Yeah, if you say, like, okay, how many people see the color red? And you look around, and
then you start saying, well, that maroon thing’s kinda red. – Yeah. – And like if you’re looking for red, you’ll see things that are shades of red. You’ll actually see more of it. I guess that all is filed
under confirmation bias. – It is. – Whether you think you
can or can’t, you’re right. I don’t remember who said that. The worth and belonging. Like, talk to me about
how this social world that we live in has maybe,
give me both sides of the coin both positively and negatively. I don’t know if you have
a positive spin on it. I’ve only, I think I’m only familiar with your criticisms of it. – I actually do. You mean social media? – Yeah, I think, because
your Compareshlager. – I mean, I think social media’s
a great communication tool. I think it’s a sucky connection tool. So if we’re using it to– – Tell me more. – Yeah, if we’re using it to
communicate with each other, if we’re using it to talk to each other, then I think it’s helpful,
and it can be great. If we’re using it as our
only form of connection to each other, it falls really short. So for example, I tell a story in the book where I lost track of my first true love, which was my first best friend. Lived growing up in New Orleans. We found each other on Facebook. She’s my relationship with
her, her name’s Eleanor, is one of the most important
relationships in my life right now, and I think will
be forever until I die. But it’s not because we just
started talking on Facebook. It’s because we drove,
and we hang out together, and we see each other. And so I just don’t
think it’s a substitute for real connection, but I
think we can communicate. But I will say this. – Okay. – If you are disembodied
from your identity on any social media, that’s bullshit. – If you’re pretending
to be somebody else? – Yeah, no name. – Anonymous. – Some anonymous name, no real picture, I won’t even communicate with you. And if you send something
to me positive or negative, I’m deleting you. I’m deleting you from my site
because to disembody yourself from your identity, you’re
participating and contributing to nothing at all because
you’re saying things to other human beings that you
would probably never say. – And you’re certainly not
close to them, like get close. – No. – It’s the opposite of that. – It’s the opposite of
that, and so I think for communicating our art,
for talking about things that are just communicative
but not connective, I think it’s helpful. But it’s not helpful if you’re disembodied from your identity. It’s not a helpful place
to work through your pain. – And sadly, that’s when
you’re isolated and alone. You go on your phone. – Yeah. – And you look for the thing
that’s not there, and not only is it not there, but it’s
like you’re comparing. You know that you’re late
on your cell phone bill and that you just got
a bad grade on the test and you crashed your car and
can’t afford to pay for it. And you’re looking at someone
else’s highlight reel. – I mean, the ESPN
highlight play of the day. It’s all you get is the play of the day. – Yep, on everybody’s everything. And invariably, we have a
mutual friend, Marie Forleo. – Yeah. – Compareshlager, she talks
about like why don’t you try and create before you
consume that because it’s the creative part will
empower you and make you, connect you with your
feelings and your emotions. – Totally. – And could maybe deliver
that for someone else before you consume. I think that’s powerful. So strong back, soft front, wild heart. – Vulnerable, courageous, that strong back is really about boundaries. – Yeah. Talk to me about boundaries. That’s like, I know, I guess I don’t, I think about them a lot. Some of the most important
moments of my life were like breaking through boundaries. Some were like set artificially by me. – Right. – Some were set by
others, and I went there or banged up against them,
and that created a conflict. – Yeah. – Talk to me about that, boundaries. – Well, I’m gonna tell
you the story of how I get to the best definition of
boundaries from a creative. – Okay. – Kelly Rae Roberts. – Okay. – Artist. Portland. She’s an artist who self-trained. She was an oncological social worker, like meaning a social worker
in oncology, hard work. She taught herself to paint. Now, she has a thriving, huge business. And she was teaching art
classes, and people were copying her art and selling it
and selling it on Etsy and selling it different places. And one day, she wrote a blog post, and it was about boundaries. And she said, let me tell you what’s okay and what’s not okay. And she made a list of
everything that was okay. It’s okay if you copy my art
and hang it in your house. It’s okay if you download
one of my paintings and use it as a little
sticker on your website as long as it’s attributed. It’s okay if you do this. It’s okay if in good spirit
you do this and this. It is not okay if you do
the following five things. – I love it. – And it was the most,
the clearest example. And I called her, and I
was like, you just pulled some social work magic bullshit on here. And she goes, yes. It would be so helpful if
creatives were all social workers because we’re trained
on here’s what’s okay and what’s not okay. You can come to my party. Love to have you. You can’t get shit-faced. – Yeah. – You know, and that’s
a hard conversation. So I think one of the
reasons why, or for creatives the biggest thing I run into,
and I work with creatives all the time and
interviewed them just almost exclusively for Rising
Strong, is people are afraid to put value on their work. – So true. – People are afraid to charge for it. People are afraid to hey, look, I know you’re a really good photographer. Can you come and shoot this wedding? – For? – Yeah, for nothing. – For zero dollars. – For just like a free quiche
and whatever you’re serving. No, do you know how
stressful it is when you get, do you know what happens
when you get to a wedding and things don’t go well? – (laughs) I’ve never
shot a wedding in my life because the concept of
the mother of the bride is way more frightening to me than Google head of advertising hanging out with you. It’s like, for the people who do that, that’s a stressful line of work. – And so the answer is I’d
love to shoot the wedding. This is my fee for doing that. Oh, man, come on. I’d really love to but,
because if you don’t put value on your work, no one else will. I mean, and I can tell you this. And I’d be curious if
this was your experience. Pro bono work, when I do it,
happens to be the hardest. They ask the most. They push. They break the most boundaries. – Yep. – And I can get into
resentment very quickly. And so for me, it’s just
like, here’s what’s okay, and here’s what’s not okay. – Yep. I give you my version. It’s work for free ’cause
you love it or full price and nothing in between. To me– – That’s it. – To me, it’s the in between. Like if you work for a low price– – That’s it. – That’s where the
resentment just goes to 1,000 overnight or in a minute because I’m like, sorry, it’s supposed to 50
grand, and I’m here for 500 ’cause I wanted to help. – Yeah. – So that’s why I like, if
you are literally getting paid nothing, you can go like,
bye (claps) at any time. And I don’t hold that over anyone for whom I would work for free
whether it’s a non-profit. – Right. It’s exactly right. – You’re not signing yourself
up for a shit sandwich in that really low
wage, and to me this is, I see this happening. This is like at catastrophic levels. People are just starting to
figure out that at low wage idea is very tough because you
want to make some money. You feel a tremendous amount
of pressure to validate to your husband, your spouse,
your peers, your parents that you can get paid, and when you do and that’s when you get
bulldozed, you get bullied. – You do. – And then there’s this
other backside of that, other side of the same coin
rather is that they usually do that on the promise of more
work at a higher rate later. And the reality is, let’s say
your rate is 5,000 dollars to shoot this wedding,
and they offer you 500 on the promise of like, my
sister’s getting married. I’m sure we can get her to hire
you, and there’s more work. If they do ever have 5,000
dollars, will they ever call you? – No. – And the answer is absolutely
not ’cause you’re the 500 dollar person, and when they have 5,000, are they gonna try and settle for the 500? Never. – Never. – Zero times out of 100 will they call. – Goosebumps. – It’s so, you can quote me
on this anytime you want. – Oh, my god, why is it true? – I don’t know. But it’s like epidemic level, especially when you’re starting
out or maybe even worse. ‘Cause starting out, you’re still figuring out your own thing. But it’s like when your
back’s up against the wall, that’s when it’s really
hard to make good choices with respect to your
career because you want to put food on the table. You want to pay your
cable bill or whatever. – No, it’s true ’cause I
do do stuff I love for free and never have any resentment. But it’s the– – You get sucked in. – That’s a strong back. – Yeah. – And a soft front is you don’t have to be a jerk when you say, no. You can just say, really
appreciate you asking. – Yeah, thank you so much. – I can’t do that. – Yeah. – Yeah. – And you don’t even like,
for at first, you find tools and coping mechanisms. Oh, my god, I’m booked solid. Thank you so much. I don’t expect people
to just walk right out and be able to own that
stuff because that’s a muscle you have to train and
how to talk about it. And you have to have language around it. But just not being a jerk
because if you’re principled, and you say, oh, gosh. I understand that you
only have 500 dollars. I can recommend a couple people
who are in that price range, but you know, this is my rate. What happens is if you
sort of politely say, no, that when they do find 5,000 dollars, you’re still the 5,000 dollar person. – Yeah. – So you’ll end up
getting a lot of the folks that you, because you
become, I don’t know this is psychologically good
or bad, but you’re just sticking to your values. And when they actually find
five grand, they’ll call you because you are their 5,000 dollar person. – God, it’s true. But I think that is a strong back example of it’s so easy to crater
under that pressure and then be resentful and then not be able to climb back out of that. – Yeah, yeah, so I think the soft front, can we talk about that for a second? That one thing I’ve
learned, well, I’ve learned so many things from my wife,
especially in the last year she’s been teaching me a
lot, is that soft front. She’s just always coming
from a place of love, and talk to me about how important, I know you’ve done research for 20 years. What role does soft front play
in connection, in empathy, in creating great stuff and
being your authentic self? Talk to me a little bit about what role the soft front plays in that. – I think the soft from to
me is about vulnerability, authenticity, and generosity. I think it’s about being
vulnerable, which is kind of letting yourself be seen, and
it’s about being generous. It’s about if things, if
you and I get sideways really quick around something,
which is a very Texas saying. If we get frustrated or
pissed off at each other– – In the craw? – Yeah, stuck in the
craw, if we get frustrated with each other to approach
you with generosity of spirit. I used to have a mentor that would say the hypothesis of generosity. What can I assume? Do I think Chase is really
just trying to piss me off and upset me and be unfair to me, or how can I approach you generously? Like, boy, that conversation we had, it hurt my feelings, I think. And help me understand
where you’re coming from. Like a soft front to me
is not, it goes with, just a soft front without
a strong back is not good. – Yeah. – And just a strong back
without a soft front is bullish. And so I think the soft
front is generosity, curiosity, love, vulnerability,
assuming the best of people. – Can I use a thing that
I learned from you on you right now, and see if it’s– – Yeah. – I’m telling myself a story. – Yes. – That is an insanely effective technique. Elaborate on that for
the folks who don’t know. – It’s changed my life, my
marriage, the way I parent, everything, and it’s just
this sentence that when we’re in struggle, and we feel
like emotionally our back is up against the wall,
our brains are hardwired for narrative and story,
which is why creatives are so successful because
they’re storytellers whether it’s with a single
photograph or painting. – Or a book. – A book, right. And so our brain wants a story. Our brain likes a story
that pitches bad guys, good guys, safe, and
dangerous, and so the stories we make up normally are our worst fears and turn the people that in
our stories into enemies. And so if I can say to
Steve, so this is a great conversation that happened
not too long ago where I said, hey, I think my mom’s
coming over for dinner. And he said, god, does
she have to come tonight? And I was like– – Huh? – Right, and so what
I wanted to say, well, I won’t say what I wanted
to say, but what I said was, the story I’m making up is that you don’t want to see my mom. And he goes, no, it’s just
that I’ve gotta go drop off at field hockey tonight. I won’t be back here ’til eight o’clock. I won’t get to see her,
but if she comes tomorrow, I’ll be able to have dinner
with your mom and your stepdad. But could you imagine ’cause
what I was going to say is when he said, does
she have to come tonight, I was gonna say, she
does, but you know what? You don’t have to. Or wait a minute. You don’t want to have dinner with my mom, yet I have dinner with your mom. And then now it’s now,
we’re in that territory. As opposed to ouch,
the story I’m making up is you don’t want to see my mom. No, I just can’t see her
if she comes tonight. Can she come tomorrow night? – How simple is that? – Simple, but like marriage-saving. – And I use those words
in like you just used, and it’s a very simple phrase. Like, I’m telling myself a story that. I would say nine out of 10
times, the person responds with something that was not
at all the worst case scenario that you made up. – Yeah. – I’m gonna reference Tony Robbins. He talks about our brain being the brain rather than our brain. And it’s a millions of years
old organ that’s developed over time, and it’s goal
is not to make us happy. It’s goal is to keep us alive. – That’s it. – And when I think of
everything that I’ve learned from your work and your
research and your writing and your storytelling,
that it is a way to like, this thing, you work for me. – Yeah. – I don’t work for you. You work for me. – Yeah. – So of the work that
you’ve done, what role do you think braving the
wilderness in particular plays to getting your
brain to work for you? Like, what part of the
narrative, what part of braving the wilderness
have you, you know, what’s the construction,
what’s the fortitude, the thing that you brought– – The paradox. – Okay. – That we have to, it’s
not as black and white as we’ve made it. It’s not as, people are complicated. We have really complex beliefs. We don’t understand
everything or each other and that we’ve got, it’s a paradox. It’s the power of real,
you know, if you dig into, if you’re a social
scientist, and you dig into intellectual kind of how
we measure intellect, we measure intellect by a person’s ability to hold competing ideas at one time and not choose one over the other. So I can have a political
belief that I believe in, and I can love you and care about you even though you do not share that belief. I can support African American activists, and support the welfare
of police officers. I can support, I can
say to you when I hear something that’s bullshit
like, hey, you either evacuated Houston or you
got what you deserve. That’s bullshit, which
is different than lying. I talk about it a lot in the book. As it turns out, there’s like
scientists who study bullshit. – What is that? On Bullshit, there’s a paper– – It’s a book. – On Bullshit. – Yeah, and there’s not just one. There’s like a ton of people who study it. Bullshit is not just a flagrant denying the authority of the truth. Bullshitters don’t
acknowledge the truth at all. And so when someone says,
look, you either got what you deserved, you
know, either you evacuated in Houston or got what you deserved, how do I speak truth to that but be civil? Can I speak truth? Yes, I can say, tell me more. Well, you knew Harvey was
coming, so if you lost your house, and you were
in danger and it was scary, it’s your fault. You could have left. So let me tell you what it’s like for me. There are six million people in Houston. And when we evacuated before
people died trying to evacuate. We didn’t evacuate because we
were told the shelters were in place because that’s what you
have to do when there are two highways out of Houston
and six million people. And so when you say that,
I don’t feel like you hear or see the pain that we’re in. – I read that on your Facebook post. – Oh yeah. – A woman who said, and
I think you addressed it in a video or a live post or something. Like, hey, if you’re
wondering why we’re here, it’s ’cause we were literally
told to by the government. They said, you’re gonna be X, Y, Z. Stay there. – Yeah. – And I believe that you called that out, and then a woman said yesterday
on your Facebook page, I called you out, and I’m
hear to say that I F’ed up. And I want to own it. And I thought that was badass. – Oh, it was badass. I have the most badass
community on Facebook ’cause she said not only
was I one of the people saying you should’ve just
evacuated, which is not empathy. It’s judgment, and it’s a
way we protect ourselves. Like this wouldn’t be happening to me. I would have done something different. I owned it. And I apologized. And then 2,000 people in this
community liked what I did, and I got hundreds of comments
supporting for being brave. She’s like, where does this happen? And I said, it happens
here because I think the contribution of this book is the power and the beauty of the paradox of, we can hold competing ideas
and just because it creates anxiety and vulnerability
in us doesn’t mean it’s the wrong thing to do. – And owning, what did you call it? Owning your story? – Yeah. – So that you can write the end? – Yeah. I think that was part of the
Rising Strong piece is that if I could grab the whole world right now and replace the word hate
with pain, I think we’d have a much clearer understanding
of what’s happening. – Say more. – People are in pain. – Yeah. – And pain will not be denied. And so the way that pain
is surfacing right now is hatred of other people,
and I think that especially happens when you have leadership
that sees people in pain, sees people in uncertainty,
and hands them an enemy. And it’s a very quick
way to build a kingdom at a very high price with
the people in that kingdom. So I think if we look for
our humanity in each other, and if we own our own
pain instead of inflicting it on others, ’cause
it’s easier to cause pain than it is to feel pain. I’m better at it. We’re all better at it. I think we can change. I think we can find our
way back to each other in a really important way. I mean, I’m sure of it. – Let’s go to the concept of leadership. In trying times whether it’s
inside a company of five people or 5,000 people or 50,000
people, I think the leadership is more important therefore,
you talked about it. And there’s bad ways to do it. And so having been inside
of so many companies and having done so much
research, what are some of the qualities of great
leaders and how is that fostered? – I would say the top
three things I’ve learned from the most transformational leaders, what they have in common. They recognize and understand
emotion in themselves. They recognize and can
read emotion in others. And they’re willing to have
really tough conversations. – Wow, okay. It’s that simple? – It is, yeah, and I can break it down. I spent the last year
and a half interviewing 80 leaders inside of big
Fortune 500 companies about transformational
leadership, what works, and what doesn’t. And it’s a lot of the
work that we do right now. And I’d say that what
we’re looking for above everything else is we’re
looking for courage in leaders. We’re looking for people who can show up. I have great conversations in
Seattle based company, Costco. – Oh, yeah, I know the Brotmans. – I’m sorry? – I know the Brotmans. – Yeah, so I was on before their CEO. The CEO went on, and then
I was going on speaking to a group of kind of their top leadership a couple of years ago, Craig Jelinek. – Yeah, that’s incredible. – Yeah, so he comes on,
and I think his team really wanted to do a scripted Q and A, but he was like, no, let’s open it up. They can ask me anything. So people started asking questions, and they were asking him
hard, loaded questions, questions I have seen CEOs in
board meetings dance around like you would not believe. And they were just shooting
these questions at him. He was answering them like
this (snaps) honestly. Hard answers, not the kind of
answers most CEOs would say– – Not made for TV. – No, not made for TV, not what the people in the audience wanted to hear. So every time he would just
say, thank you for the question. We’re not gonna actually be
doing that moving forward. I understand. This is why we’re not doing it. Next question. Where most CEOs would be like,
hey, that’s a great question. Chase, get that down,
so we can circle back. What’s your name? So we can circle back with Ann next week. But he was answering them, and
I was thinking, oh, my god. Oh, my god, what is going
on in this audience? And I had to go on right after him. And so when he’s done,
everyone jumps to their feet and starts hooting and
hollerin’ and clapping over their heads for him,
and I turned to the person sitting next to me, and
I’m like, what is going on? And they said, I’ll never forget. She looked at me and said, at
Costco, we clap for the truth. – Wow. – Holy shit. – Yeah. – Yeah, and there’s a
leader delivering the truth, not what people want to
hear and also saying, I don’t know a couple times. – Yeah, did you feel like
that was a part of the culture that they had sewn in,
that we clap for the truth, or was that the women in the moment saying what she just saw? – No, that’s the culture. That’s a culture. We clap for the truth. So leaders who can have
hard, real conversations in respectful, productive ways. And I’ll tell you what. That is vulnerable. That’s courageous. Leaders who can foster
cultures of accountability, not blame and back-channeling. Leaders who can inspire
people to take smart risks, innovate, fail, learn from
it, clean it up, move forward. – What role does speed play in leadership? I think sort of underpinned
in there was like that he was just
answering these questions. And is that like, is speed
both conversationally and like what an organization
does, is that like relative to a bullshit meter? It’s like they don’t have any bullshit, so they can just go right at it. – Sometimes yes, but sometimes it’s, I guess there’s a, when I think
about speed and leadership and culture, I think about
two different things. One is a sense of urgency. And most transformative cultures
have a sense of urgency. That is hell on wheels to try to train in people who don’t have it. – Yeah. – Like if you start hiring
people who do not have a sense of urgency, that
is hard to teach people or to instill in people
that don’t come with that. It is just tough. – I’m thinking right now (laughs). – Right, I can see it
registering on your face. Speed, it’s not about speed. It’s about the sweet spot
between thoughtful and decisive. And so I think what people
are looking for are people who are both thoughtful and decisive. So they can make good decisions
that are mindful of time, but they also are thoughtful
about dependencies, critical paths, and
consequences around the company. And so I think what you’re
looking for are two different qualities, a sense of
urgency and straddling thoughtfulness and decisiveness. – What role, I’m gonna
keep going around there ’cause I think, you know,
roughly when I think the community, they’re kind
of split between people who are full time employed somewhere else and people who are independent. And I love looking at
where those things overlap, and so whether you’re leading, you know, when I’m trying to find truth
in whether you’re leading 5,000 or five is I think
there’s so much commonality. – I do, too. – When like the concept
of innovation and failing and you are probably also
seeing some patterns in there. Is there anything you
care to talk about there? – Yeah, I mean, there’s no
innovation without failure. And so if you breed perfectionism and fear or lead with shame as a management tool, you’re gonna have a really
hard time innovating. Or innovation is going to
rest in the hands of a few that have a high
tolerance for that kind of fear-based scarcity-based
culture, which is not innovation at all if it’s
in the hands of a few. So the people who did it
best are people who have systemically built in failure
and learning from failure, real systems that we know this is coming. So far in our offices, we have a pretty high tolerance for failure. We have a low tolerance for failing around the same things more than once. We have a pretty high
tolerance for risk and failure. When there is failure,
and there is inevitably, we go into a very specific
process called the story rumble where every stakeholder’s at the table. We spend a lot of time
in problem identification ’cause that’s the, you know, Einstein, if I had 24 hours to
solve a problem, I’d spend one of them, 23 of them, I guess. No, if I had an hour to
solve a problem, I’d spend 55 minutes defining the problem
and five minutes solving it. So we go into problem
identification first. Then we go into what story is everyone at the table making up? They write it, and we
post it, so it’s not told. So there’s no kind of halo
effect of what story is Brene, ’cause you know it’s my company. – Brene goes first, right. – Brene goes first, and
then it’s the halo effect all the way around, so
we all write it down. We post it up. We dig into what stories are true, what stories are not true. Is there stuff underpinning
the stories that are not true that are getting in the way of success? And then we really dig in until, I mean, sometimes we’ve been in those
rooms for four or five hours until we emerge with key learnings that we can embed in
the culture so we don’t repeat the same mistake. What did we learn? What can we do different? But it’s programmatic. – It’s a system. – It’s a system, and so
you’re taught that system during your onboarding with us. So there’s an expectation
that you’re going to fail ’cause you’re taught how to
get through it when it happens. – Wow, so what about
trust and accountability. – So trust is really interesting. Trust is a big part of the Braving book. It’s part of Rising Strong as well. Trust was a real issue
for me when I was talking to leaders about trust. And so I would say, how do you
talk to people about trust? And they’re like, well, it’s
really hard ’cause as soon as you say you don’t trust
somebody, they can’t hear you. And so I thought we need a
better way to deal with trust. So I went into all the data. We just kind of passed our
200,000 mark with data. So lots of data. So we went into the data
trying to figure out, if Chase is talking to me about trust, if he pulls me in, and he says, listen. I know you’re upset about
not getting a promotion. There are some trust
issues we need to work on before that can happen. First of all, I go completely limbic. I can’t hear anything you’re
saying after my trustworthiness is challenged, so what’s
a better way to do that? And I think a better way to
do that is the seven elements of trust, which are measurable,
observable behaviors. So instead of calling me in and saying, hey, I don’t trust you,
or there’s a trust issue, you dig into, we call it BRAVING. It’s an acronym, Boundaries, Reliability, Accountability, Vault or
confidentiality, Integrity, Non-judgment or generosity. So instead of calling me and
just saying I don’t trust you, you call me in and say,
we have to shore up our reliability issues
before we can move you into a position like that. You have a tendency to
over-commit and not deliver because you’re over-committed,
so you’re not reliable. And now I can hear you. There’s something very
specific that we can work on. We can observe it. We can measure it. We can change it. – You have that bravery
thing, that acronym in there? – Yeah. – There’s so many good
systems in the book. I’m gonna pause on the
research stuff for a second, and I always, especially
with you, you’re such an amazing person like to be
able to touch and to be around. You just put off such a good vibe. I don’t the right way, I
don’t know where I’m going with this, but I want to try
and like sow some of that into, if you’re listening or watching right now, let’s talk about you as
comfortable, as much as you want to talk about your personally. What’s like just a couple things? What are some foods you like? What do you like to do? What do you like to do on
a Saturday and a Sunday? Like, take me inside your
life just for a second. It’s just something I’m trying. – I like it. – Like, these are you
know, people, like cameras, it’s like, you know, faces and whatnot. Like what’s something, yeah. – I’m super, what people
don’t know about me. – Yeah, people don’t know. – I’m super private. – Yes, that’s kind of why
I’m asking a little bit. – I’m a super private person. – If this is like off limits, we’ll just– – Oh, no, I’ll let you know
for sure when we get there. Yeah. – Boundaries. – Boundaries. – You’re a professional boundary setter. – Yeah, one time I, you know,
I do some work with OWN. – OWN is the Oprah Winfrey Network. – And someone said, yeah,
your nickname is BB. And I was like, oh,
yeah, people call me BB growing up, Brene Brown. And they’re like, no, it
stands for Boundaries Brown. I was like, oh, take it. Sold. No, I’m really private. I’m very introverted. So I can do like big talks in
front of thousands of people because it’s my work. But I wouldn’t want to be at
a party with over 10 people or something like that. But I’m very introverted. I’m very private. – And by introverted,
you mean that’s where you get your energy from? – Get my energy from like alone with my family or with my data, yeah. In that order. Like, alone, family, data. – Can you, is data like work, like career? – Yeah, thinking, yeah, working,
looking at data, reading, interviews, analyzing
stuff, yeah, thinking. – And how about when you
do have to be on stage? I mean, you’re, you
know, homies with Oprah. You do a lot of television. – Really hard stuff for me. – Yeah? – Yeah. Words are really important to me, so I like to be thoughtful about what I say. – Is that why writing is such a vehicle? – Yeah, and speaking, I think
I really have fun speaking. It’s the work. So it’s not like a social setting. I get homesick really easy,
so I try not to be on the road for more than three or
four days at a time. My happy place is like laying
on a couch or like in bed like with Steve and the kids. So I can like smell all the hair. – Oh, I love that. – Yeah. – That’s an amazing detail. – So I can just, yeah, I just like, yeah. – Upbringing? – Oldest of four, very Texas
tough, zero vulnerability. – Was that your vehicle into it? Once you realized that you were– – Yeah. – Yeah. – It was just such a
cluster because we were, the mandate was be brave. The other mandate was never be vulnerable. And that shit doesn’t work. You can’t be courageous
without being vulnerable, and so I think that, I think
all the hard stuff growing up really fueled my work. And I think I’m like the
luckiest girl in the world because my parents and
everyone just learned with me. They read the books with us. We talk about it. We talk about hard things,
and my parents will say, we didn’t know. And they are just like these amazing grandparents to my kids. We just grew up kinda
together and learned together. I can be a good leader, but I have some real pain points in
leadership, some real blind spots. I’m a real passionate person,
and sometimes the people who work for me say it’s
like being across from, like being in a wind tunnel. – I have no idea what
you’re talking about. – Really? – I’m just kidding. – Okay, got it, good. – I’m the worst at that. – Yeah. – We share that. – No, and it’s my passion, but it’s a dark side of my passion. Like, I can get really
worked up about something. I’m not good in scarcity and fear. I make bad decisions when I’m afraid. What else? I like– – I love this. This is bold. I don’t know. Thank you so much. – That’s great. Of course. I’m trying to think what
else is interesting. – And this is way you
get when you’re just like hanging out with Brene, and so
I was trying to deliver that. – Yeah, we talk like very– – We haven’t seen each other for a year, and we were like, super deep– – Down deep in like five seconds, yeah. I do have really good
boundaries around most things. I told you earlier like
I got sober the day after I finished graduate school. I quit smoking and drinking. – Can I share in the
book that you talk about trying to find a group? You went to AA, and they said,
no, you’re not welcome here. – Yeah, I was like, they were
like, you don’t drink enough. And I was like, go to
CoDA, and I was like, okay. And I go to CoDA, and they’re
like, I think you should be in AA or maybe like OA. – I just got kicked out of there. – And then I was like, I
go to OA, and they’re like, no, we don’t think you’re here. And I was like, what kind of shit is it when you don’t belong in AA? Like, you get kicked out of
AA like for not belonging, like come on, people. – Just even sharing that is so incredible. – I was like, what the hell? And then I finally found like a sponsor. They’re like, you get
a sponsor right away, and so we went to go eat dinner. And she’s like listening. She’s like, I was like, I
can’t, I don’t have a home. She’s like, you’ve got the
pu-pu platter of addictions. You just need to stop
drinking, eating, smoking, and getting in your family’s business. I was like, son a sea cook. What am I gonna do with me time? You know, and so I tried it. I tried ’em all. So I think part of my big
sobriety was I had this other sponsor who we would go
out to lunch or dinner. And I’d say, oh, I’ll get it. You can get it next time. She goes, no, I’ll get my this time. You get yours this time. And I was like, oh, my
god ’cause that’s like that’s not that big Texan
like don’t worry about it. I got it. It’s on me. And then piss and moan the
whole way home because you had to buy it and they drank
five bottles of wine. That’s the Texan way. And so I was like, okay. And then I got to this
point where I was like, very much, very good at
boundaries and very good at saying, telling what people, what’s okay and what’s not okay. At first I was like a boundary bully. Like I swung too far. And so people would say,
hey, Ellen’s gonna spend, yes, Ellen’s gonna
spend the night tonight. And we’re gonna watch this movie. I’m like, oh, well, I can
understand you let your kids watch that movie. That’s inappropriate because
there’s a lot of like of bad gender role
models, and so I was like, and then I became like
the bully boundary bully. Then I was just, then I kind
of swang back in the middle. And so I’m like oh, that sounds good. Probably not something Ellen can see. Is there something else? Would you mind watching something else? As opposed to like taking people
to task for their choices. I like boundaries. I like eggplant. – (laughs) That’s amazing. – Yeah. – I love that you like eggplant. – I do like eggplant. Do you like eggplant? – I do. I like it. I once made, I have a little
bit of fear of eggplant because I once tried to
make Kate eggplant lasagna, and it was the worst. I just put them in
there, in with the sauce. And I just like, the sauce
gets hot in like 20 minutes, but apparently it takes a
very long time to cook those. – You need to cook ’em first.
– Cook ’em first. Missed that bit. – What did Kate think? Did she just like eat around him. – No, we were like one
minute in, and she’s trying to just like brave it. And I’m like this is
literally the worst thing you’ve ever had. We cried laughing. It was so, so good. So I have a little bit
of a, it stumped me. One of my worst cooking
moments was eggplant lasagna. But I do love eggplant. – I like eggplant. I like olive oil. – I’m gonna shift gears for a second. – Okay. – I’m gonna just try, and
we’re keepin’ it movin’. So we talked a little
bit about creativity. We talked a little bit about innovation. You went to, you yourself
showed some vulnerability sharing your strengths and weaknesses. What like strength and
authenticity and power, I think there’s a cultural
sensitivity around just something came up in my
life recently where, and Kate and I managed this personally
and professionally. She basically was so
critical in the business that we built as photography business, which ultimately transitioned
into CreativeLive. She was so instrumental in that. And I’m a big personality. I’m not gonna lie. And yet Kate and I had
to work on if I’m big did it mean she was small by default because I walk into a room
excited and sort of bold. And I’m trying to find a
way to not have to not be ’cause if I’m not that I’m not me. – No, yeah, yeah. – And so I think this is,
I’m asking for a friend. (laughs) Help for those folks who
have that wind tunnel or that, the way you described it. Tell us how we can be okay with that and what we should do to manage it. I know you’re not a
therapist, but what would you, given the framework of all your research? – I think– – There’s clearly some
authenticity thing in there. Like I just can’t– – No, I think it’s– – I think I’m trying to
build a case for being me. I don’t know. Is it a non-issue, and I’m just– – Yeah, I don’t, I think. I don’t think bigness
and kind of excitement and passion and enthusiasm
is something that I’m willing to apologize for because I
don’t think being mindful and thoughtful and loving
and generous to other people and being myself are mutually exclusive. And I think the caricature
of myself or the caricature of you may be mutually exclusive
with who you want to be. But I think who we are is not. And so I think, I think it goes back to the paradox thing that you are kind of a
big, I don’t know that, I guess I’m struggling with that term. I think you have a lot of passion. And you have a lot of focus. And I think there’s an intensity. – Actually, someone told
me, a therapist told me that I seem to crave intensity. I don’t know if it’s– – Yeah, I think there’s probably, and I’m a very intense person. And I mean, I think that,
I think, I don’t know if it’s this book or the other book. I write about like having
total personality dysmorphia. Like someone told me I
was a very serious person, and I was so offended by that
because I think of myself as like Meg Ryan in French
Kiss, kind of goofy and silly. And things like that. And I was like, Steve, do you
think I’m a serious person? And he’s like, you’re
a super serious person. And I was like, you don’t think I’m funny? He’s like, no, you’re funny,
but you’re serious funny. And I’m like, do you
think I’m like whimsical? He’s like, no, you’re no whimsy. You’re not a whimsical person. You’re a very, somebody in France said, you’re tres serieuse,
like you’re very serious, which is like a way
they talk about people. And so I think intense or serious– – That French word has a
little bit of gravity to it. Serious is also like, your presence, or I guess that’s the way I always. – Does it mean darkness? – I don’t know. I don’t want to pretend to
over-index on my French skills, but I always, when I would use it. Serious, it was serious and you
have some gravity about you. – Like the grim reaper? (laughs) I don’t know what that means. Like, da, da. I just don’t know. I don’t think– – I’m trying to not make
this about me ’cause we talk a lot about vulnerability
and how you do it. And I’m like, this is something– – I think this is super important. I think that, ’cause
everyone watching is either, you know, either maybe shares
things in common with us or shares things in common
with maybe Kate or even Steve who’s a quieter person
or partner, you know. I don’t think your level
of intensity or focus necessarily, I know very
quiet people who can be very self-centered and not
thoughtful about other people. I know really intense
focused people who can be. I don’t think that speaks
to our thoughtfulness about other people because
when I came in here, you asked me how am I doing with Harvey? What’s going on? What’s it been like to
be on the book tour? You were so curious about my
life in a real genuine way. But in a real focused
and intense way, too. – Let’s get into it. – Right. – I haven’t seen you in a year. Yeah, I get it. – But I thought it was beautiful and warm, and so I think we gotta be
careful to not think of ourselves as the caricatures of the
things we worry about. Like, I don’t apologize anymore
for being a serious person. And it’s not that I’m not funny
or I don’t like to have fun. I just may not think you’re
funny or want to have fun specifically with you. (laughs) That just may be what it is. – That is so true. You have the best laugh, too,
by the way, the best laugh. – Oh, no, it’s terrible sometimes. There’s another person
at my office that laughs kind of like me, and they’re like, parrots are mating in the other
room ’cause we’re both like. (caws) But yeah, I think, I don’t know. It’s– – I feel like you went there. – I think it’s a big question. – I think the caricature is interesting. Like, I’m telling myself
a story that my caricature like often gets mistaken
for, but I think the way Kate and I have come
to work on it is like, I’m like a candy bar. A little bit crunchy on
the outside but super gooey on the inside, and anyone who
I get to know a little bit, like you’re okay with that. Like the crunchy outside
is just like okay. It can be something. Diversity and inclusion. I think that everything
that I have built that had any strength or transcendence
or beauty behind it took in a lot of different, there’s
a lot of different inputs. I think about that from
like building CreativeLive. And there’s all kinds of, I
think, culturally right now we’re more aware of the
opportunity that we’ve missed over a long period of time
to include different ideas and different cultures. And can you just talk to
me a little bit about that? It’s present in your research. You mentioned it earlier a couple times. – Yeah, I think that, god, I don’t even know
where to start with that. It’s so big. No, it’s, I can talk about it
very personally with us. If you really want to be successful and you really want to
that transformative success that success that really,
where you really make a contribution and you disrupt
something even if it’s your own work, you disrupt your
own work, you have to have, you have to build really long tables with seats for everyone. More tables, fewer walls. And you have to have
different voices, and you have to have leadership that
has the courage to say I think we’ve got a race
issue going in here. I think we’ve got a gender
issue going on here. You have to have the courage to, look. You cannot stop people
from making up stories. You can create a culture
where people have permission to check them out. You know, and that requires
some really strong leadership around inclusivity, around diversity. And we need to look like
the people we serve. – And you see it reflected in the work. – Yeah, and you see it
reflected in the work, yeah. And look. White supremacy, that’s a real thing. And I think the things that
we’ve seen in Charlottesville around the country have
kind of mortified a lot of moderate white folks, and
I think people of color have woke up every day of their lives, and that’s what they’re up against. They’ve seen it. We haven’t. And now, we see it, and now it’s time to do something about it. Because it’s not the job
of the people who are the victims of those
violence to build the tables and invite people to sit
down and figure it out. It’s our job to do that. I mean, it’s our job to do that. So we all can do something. And here’s the hard part. And sometimes I get really weary, but if you’re going to opt
in to that conversation, you’re gonna find yourself
on the shit end of criticism because you’re not gonna
be able to do it perfectly. But opting out of the
conversation because you could get criticized is the
definition of privilege. To say I don’t want to take
this on because this could get messy and hard and I
could say the wrong thing, and someone might think I’m
racist or sexist or homophobic. To opt out of the conversation
because it’s uncomfortable is what privilege is. So I think we opt in. We screw it up. We listen. We learn. And we do better. – Thank you for that. That’s, I think I’m so
culturally sensitive because the times, and you
referenced it so many times in our conversation today
that we’re living in. And there’s a microscope on the stuff. I think the fact good
information moves so quickly. You get to see the pervasiveness in it. And not just culturally how
far we have to go, but inside of the organizations and
inside of a single heart. There’s 1,000 miles to cover. – There’s 1,000 miles to
cover, and we’re gonna have to pick each other up and carry
each other some of the way. – Last question. – Okay. I’m steeled for it. – It’s a pretty small question. – Okay. – What are you most excited
about right now in your life that we could know about? It doesn’t have to about,
obviously, I don’t want you to say you’re good at boundaries, so I don’t have to qualify it. But maybe not most. I always hate the most questions. – Most questions are really hard. – What are you excited about right now? I think we can maybe you can just wander a little bit in the wilderness
with professionally, personally, like I’m excited about. The book is out. I’m excited that the
book tour is almost over. (laughs) I’m excited about, I always
like to end on some joy. Like, what’s bringing you joy right now? You talked a lot about being
in bed and smelling hair. – Yeah. I think what brings me real joy right now is having witnessed what
I believe is true and real about people during
hurricane Harvey in Houston. I think that has been, you
know, it was a hard way get it, and if I could undo it I
would ’cause so many people have lost so much. But I feel like I needed
a little bolus of hope about what humanity is really about. And I’ve seen that, and I know it’s true. And I know it’s real. And I know it’s possible. And I think we’re gonna find
our way back to each other. So I think in the big world,
I’m most excited about that. I think in the smaller
world, I’m going to Seattle. – Yes. We have to find a way to, I
know your schedule is packed, but I gotta sneak Kate in the back door. I’m sitting here with you, and she’s not. – Yeah. – I’m getting texts right now. – Yeah, Kate can come in
any back door I’m in, yeah. So I’m excited. I’m gonna spend some
time with the Seahawks. – That’s so cool. – Yeah. I think that’s really exciting. – Do your Texans get
jealous when you spend time with the Seahawks? – I don’t think so. – You haven’t checked in. – I haven’t checked in with them on that. – Good. (laughs) Sorry. – Maybe? (laughs) – I’m sorry. I don’t know. I just did that for you. – I’m so excited about the book tour. I’m excited about seeing everybody. – Is that the next stop on the tour? – Austin tomorrow night,
Portland, then Seattle. Yeah. And then you know what else
I’m really excited about? I’m gonna do the sermon
at the National Cathedral in Washington DC, so yeah. – Wow. – I’m an Episcopalian, so
that’s a really big deal. – Wow. – Yeah, so I’m excited about that. – You gotta know somebody
probably for that. How did you figure that one out? – I don’t know. I just got an invitation. I thought it was like, at
first I was like Google it. Am I allowed to do that? – Do I have the proper credentials? – Do I have the credentials to do that? So I’m excited about that. So I’m really grateful for
the opportunity to talk about the work with a really
engaged meaningful community, and so yeah, I’m excited about dinner. – Will you hand me that book
so my chair doesn’t squeak? – Yeah, you do, you have
an interesting chair. – She’s @BreneBrown
pretty much everywhere. – Yeah. – That’s the book that you want to get your hands on right there. Your work is totally transformational. – Thank you. – You’re an icon, and you’re so like, freakin’ cool about it. I love it. Thank you so much for being on the show. It’s so cool. And I’m just gonna tell you right now. We’re gonna go out to dinner. So the conversations– – I’m really excited about that. – The conversation is
just now starting for us. Sorry we have to cut the cameras off. I love you all you guys. Thank you so much for paying attention. I hope you all have a wonderful day. I’ll probably see ya in
my inbox, hopefully, wait. I will make a video and maybe
be in your inbox tomorrow. Thanks again for being
a part of the community. Muah, love you guys. Brene brown.
– Love you guys, thank you. (light electronic music)


  • Marianne Dressler says:

    Such a meaningful interview!

  • Sama H says:

    Love it! So getting the book 🙂

  • Aliya Ashraf says:

    love her !. thank you for bringing her. Also i think about finding a certain colour around you , if you want to look for red –i remember Tony Robbins talk about it i believe ..

  • the interstellar fox117 says:

    "Its not as black and white as we have made it"

  • Lízia says:

    I hope this is taken as a feedback and not as criticism, I believe you’d be much better off asking the question than saying “talk to me about…” . I believe it sounds less robotic. But please don’t take what I’m saying blindly. I’d say review the interview and see what you think. All the best!

  • Scarlet Marosa says:

    Thank you so much for this message!!! I feel the freedom, release and empowerment in this!!

  • Sancti says:

    "As a social species. . . we need to see the artefacts that allow us to see the humanity in each other. That's art."

  • Charlotte Helms says:

    Powerful amazing interview ! please say name of the books out loud because your hands cover the title ever time
    You picked it up to promote it. You are amazing host I will start watching you Chase,

  • Tea and Schmidt says:

    Wow. Thank you so much for sharing this interview. Brene Brown is changing the way I think about my life and now I'll need to add Chase Jarvins. This is amazing stuff

  • Lynn S says:

    That's me – outside looking in. I live near family and I still feel lonely at times. To me that is so sad. Yes, on the other hand, I can't stand being out with people who are laughing at ignorant and mean jokes, or someone shaming someone. So, I have isolated. I need to find my way back. Thanks you two for an honest talk.

  • Sarah Vickery says:

    Super video! I love Brene Brown's description of how we need art to find the humanity and connection to each other. I really understand also the need to stand alone and feel misunderstood as a creative. I draw a cartoon and I'm nervous every time I put out a new cartoon. She's given me so many ideas for some new cartoons! Thanks Brene and Chase!

  • Laseanda Ford says:

    Brene is my absolute favorite. Excited about reading this book.

  • Shannon Kringen says:

    we need art and music i so agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Prudence K says:

    Brene is #lifegoals

  • Deborah Boyce says:

    Love the video, love the message. I get stuck at lie I was told as a child, which disables me from my full potential. It often baffles me as to why. It surely is a process, I am learning to resolve the lies in an envirnment, which is safe for me to test. Afterwards, homeward bound… Texas, USA. How I miss home, such a strong reason to drive to resolution. I guess it is a Texas thing.

  • Deborah Watkins says:

    Just excellent !

  • SeeHowSheGlows says:

    Hey, this was such a great interview and I’ve been thinking a lot about your conversation about being big.

    I’ve been there too – on both sides, actually. I’ve definitely felt small around my parents when they were being big and have watched a dear friend get small when I was having a big moment.

    First, I have got to acknowledge your courage in talking about this, Jarvis. Mad props. That takes a willingness to look at yourself in a deep and honest way. I agree with Brené when she says that we should never apologize for being big. 100%. But I know that the times when others have felt small around me, my “bigness” was more about performing than it was about pure passion and connection. Passion draws people in, but performance pushes people away, especially when that person loves the real you and can tell that you’re not being genuine. Might be something to consider.

    Thanks for being you!

    X Lauren Killam

  • Heather Althouse says:

    I must be stupid, this just sounds like a bunch of rambling..i am just not following it

  • Jelly says:

    what I love about Brene Brown is that when she talks, she's not afraid to STOP and think before she speaks. And that makes the whole thing so human especially when there are questions that are so deep and very difficult to answer. She doesn't make vulnerability sound easy because it is not easy to be vulnerable. And I love her for that.

    And this video is beyond awesome! Why did I just find this channel now!!!

  • Pam Bennett says:

    It’s a safe time for who? Not for African-Americans or immigrants or the holocaust going on in Yemen
    Or the slave trade
    Or Libya Iraq Afghanistan Palestine
    Or the drone bombing we are dropping 121 bombs aday
    One every 12 minutes
    Or Fukushima
    Or the threat of nuclear war for MONEY
    Or the acidic oceans full of plastic
    Or our insane military industrial complex stealing people and torturing them
    It is not a safe time

  • Pam Bennett says:

    Jeff Besos behaves very poorly in how he treats his employees and the environment

  • joanjettboy says:

    Brené is the best!!!!❤️❤️❤️❤️

  • Cordialgreetings • Ella says:

    This is my favorite interview by far, Chase. Excellent job bringing out the best in Brené. Excellent and insightful interview.

  • Patrick Mallilo says:

    What is this woman talking about and what does she do?

  • There are no Problems, only Challenges says:

    It took me a long time to figure out why I wanted to start a youtube channel and share my challenge videos. And just recently I started to understand that it has got a lot, if not all to do with what Brene Brown stands for: "vulnerability is power" – "daring greatly" – "step into the arena and get dirty".
    I call it "the behind the scenes". I might do a challenge on waking up early for a month, but I'm not so much interested in strategies as I am in what it does to my psyche and to me as a person. And I love sharing that, because, aren't we all Human. Isn't it always so comforting to see someone else being Human as well 😉 And than we call it BRAVE. You are so brave for being you, for being honest and showing the less "perfect" parts of the journey. And I'm like: OF COURSE, that is the only place where it is actually INTERESTING 😉 That is where all humans can finally meet each other. 🙂
    Quite passionate about that! 😀

  • Jacquie Dunbar says:

    Such a wonderful interview, thank you very much Chase and Brene.

  • Laurie says:

    This was so amazing — I can't comment on just one topic cause there were so many. The last question — what brings joy – for me right now, watching this video brought me joy.

  • Kim Bartlett says:

    OMG. This spoke to me when these two talked about the worth of my creative art at minute 39. I have worked as a graphic artist for 15 years for a small business that tears every part of my work down, and then says things like, "*eyeroll* artists are so touchy" when I resist. I get paid less than half the national average for someone in my field, yet l feel like my life circumstances (disabled daughter) have trapped me in this position. As a result I have become terrified to put my own creative work out there and have been stuck in a slump with my graphic art, photography and painting. I agree to do so much pro-bono work chasing approval that I get buried and no longer get any joy from the creative part. I really have to do something about this cycle.

  • Louise Forde says:

    I believe we have looked to concepts of isolation for a sense of validation and purpose. It is an error. Love yourself, take care of yourself, it doesn't matter what other people think……the list goes on. Consumerism has also created more investment in loneliness and isolation. More work, more money, more goods, more comparison, more object-based value. More children in childcare, in activities etc, etc. A family needs to be a primary focus for health and basic wellness as you develop and then this needs to move to others in the community. Core relationships feed this and Love is the core. I look to my mother. I am also a creative person and can be alone but still must answer to feelings of loneliness. I know the difference between being alone and feeling lonely. I can accept being alone and I can understand loneliness but I must be able to create spaces to improve my state of loneliness in order to respect my human need.

  • Louise Forde says:

    Accepting pain is a huge challenge. I agree with the value of doing this rather than inflicting pain. Teaching young people to think and to discuss rather than react and find blame is truly a worthwhile skill (or group of skills) to pass on because leadership is not a position it is always a frame of mind. Power is a position that can be mistaken for leadership. Hopefully, we can all look to learn better how to allow people into positions of power only after significant human values have been considered.

  • MaryAnne Fernholz says:

    Thank you both for being a part of the creation of the NEW and IMPROVED me!

  • Treava M says:

    48:40 Conflict Resolution around the stories we make up. Good Stuff.

  • JamesScottGuitar says:

    How does loneliness figure into the lives of Monks?

    Is their loneliness offset by their spiritual practice?

    Are they as affected by loneliness as the average person?

  • JamesScottGuitar says:

    16:17 Profound observation…

  • LA Turley says:

    Both people seem good on their own, but together it feels like they are talking at each other rather than having a discussion. A little exhausting for longer than 30 mins.

  • Handee Kandee says:

    Wow – 20 Mins in – Wow (quoted below). So crazy coincidence to come across this video, and just a few days ago I created a similar artsy life lessons video, too fun.

    Check out my artsy/bold, but hopefully helpful life lessons video, if you'd like:

    Rock on Girl!

    LOVE your quoted 20mins in. "The Wilderness – Realizing we are on our own a lot, and it is ok, there is beauty and strength in that. Not that I won't ever find great joy in being a part of something. But I will always belong to and believe in MYSELF first <3".

  • JamesScottGuitar says:

    19:58 Big insight…#2

  • Nisha Halai says:

    Thanks Brene. Yes, a great quote by Maya Angelou: “You only are free when you realise you belong no place — you belong every place — no place at all.” = "Yoga" (Union with our True Nature – of One and All and None). See Sadhguru (Isha Foundation)

  • Andrea Ruygt says:

    I adore Dr. Brown, and love how this interview is so candid, and Chase obviously loves her as well. It's so sweet, tender, and powerful! Thank you for making and sharing this vid!

  • MegaNYC09 says:

    Is this the one where she talks about soft skills?

  • Willem Hendrik Van Greunen says:

    Carl Yung is just a one of a kind… The archetype and the journey with the the Tarrot in midlife crisis when u face those dragons in the wilderness alone…. And that CHILDHOOD TRAUMA dragons can eat u if u don't slay them…

  • mimi mimi says:

    I have a fake facebook account not because I'm afraid to vent my opinion or because when I do i do it in a trollish way. All of the things I say through that account I have and will say to you in person with no problem whatsoever. The reason I use that account is because even though its not like I have a huge international reputation everyone cares about, I dont want to drag myself for months or years because of a comment people dont agree on and want to go on a crusade to fight me online. Its that simple. I'm not a troll and im not a coward but neither am I stupid. So get that in your study brene.
    And besides, i came her to see chance interview you again. Are you ever going to chance your speech? Like come on. Move on.

  • ProMUA_Chechel says:

    So powerful….. thank you so much. I truly appreciate this valuable content you created for me and for the world… More power to you

  • Saurabh Pat'el-ectro says:

    This is some amazing work of Brene that Ive started to follow and just stumbled upon. Congratulations on creating a paradigm shift!

  • Анастасия Кулагина says:

    Helped me sooo much. Thank you so much!

  • grazieba barbapapa says:

    I can't say thank you enough for this.

  • PewterPics and ThePewterPen says:

    So damned thoughtful, so relevant, soo much to take in – gonna have to watch this one a few times to really get and absorb everything that is useful . Thank you both for this.

  • Mike Godwin says:

    the funny thing about this is, for the last 2-3 years I would think to myself, "Brene Brown is the one person in the world that I would most love to sit down with to help me understand everything mostly including myself"…….this conversation was everything I needed that I would have gotten from that private one on one with her. These are the questions Im wrestling with along with others Im sure, but kind of delivered in the most timely divine way to me …..

  • jamie pauls says:

    Henry Ford "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right"

  • Kathryn Nicholas says:

    I love this- trained in social work, now artist who sculpts pets. My background enables me to communicate with my customers who are often grieving a loss. Tons of helpful information here. Thank you

  • Squid Amigo says:

    Art certainly has great value in our lives (around minute marker 12) but I believe the answer is Christ. He makes all things beautiful in His time. (Ecclesiastes 3:11)

  • Kristan Lalley says:

    I find Dr. Brown to be honest, open, empathic, smart as hell, and real. I'm so happy I stumbled on her first TED talk!

  • Jacqueline Juneau says:

    Hahahaa! Brene' I was raised in Missouri and heard "stuck in my craw" all of my life, but… please let me share my one of my Mother's (may she rest in peace) profound sayings about people who wanted to attempt to entice bad feelings in others about themselves and that was "Girl, you just have to let those people go ahead and chew off their own arms and legs, that's their choice if they wish to live only as a head and a torso" Soon they'll have to hire someone to pull them around in a wagon and if they keep chewing; no matter how old they are, they will eventually fit" HAHAHAA!

  • Elizabeth Perkins says:

    I definitely like the value yourself and your work. Although I once heard a presenter comment that he presents at events for nothing because he loves it. He charges A LOT to travel because he hates it. That always makes me smile to think about.

  • géraldine Eelbode says:

    "Its beautiful to be alone. To be alone does not mean to be lonely. it means the mind is not influenced and contaminated by society.' J-K . There is a vast strength in being alone and it has nothing to do with being isolated and feeling lonely. Loneliness is entirely different from aloneness. That loneliness must be passed to be alone. Loneliness is not comparable with aloneness. The man who knows loneliness can never know that which is alone. And love can only flourish from a mind who knows how to stand alone! I love this woman !!! Beautiful video !! thankx

  • Ruth MacClure says:

    From New Zealand

  • Laura Starace says:

    Wow. Lots of good stuff She is so wise.

  • Threelly AI says:

    I hate it when this happens…

  • Rhonda Rose says:

    She is so right about social media we lost that face to connection we had in the good old days….young people didn’t even have it at all in their lives it’s sad the bonds that use to be,,,

  • Lydia Rowe says:

    Belonging everywhere but nowhere is such a piercing sentiment…when adapting to a new village..when you arrive there can be settling in time but when you have an adaptive know where it is you belong..but from where it is you came from and to where it is
    you are going..makes it no where
    Thank you Brene….giving clarity
    to what is in the now…☺

  • Patricia Bartosik says:

    The comment about Costco's leadership for the truth is great and I saw it in action in customer service. It was awesome for the customer.

  • momlifewithtelly says:

    6:25 wow

  • momlifewithtelly says:


  • momlifewithtelly says:


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  • D. G. says:

    I’m only in 17 minutes but I had to stop to ask this question. I am profoundly deaf. I cannot hear sounds, none at all because the nerves in both of my ears were already damaged at birth. If you could think of the loudest noise/sound that you have ever heard….I can’t hear even that. Now, Brené says music is important…so I’m thinking…how can I tap into that as a deaf person?

  • Zoe Zadi says:

    I love eggplant/aubergine too!

  • 1chipchap says:

    Massive crush on that woman

  • zorazora zorzzora says:

    Grasping the essence of what she is saying is soooooo heavy… why oh why does this life have to be so intricate… this life is just too much… suicide feels so much easier…but then Brene confirms I belong here…. mercy.. talk about paradox

  • professormaxtrinity says:

    We have entered a mass, organic stage of Hermitude. It crosses all demographics, including age. I have a really good idea of what is happening, a framework really. Joseph Campbell said , we need a new myth. I have a basic structure for a viable myth for our "story" as the Human-we and it satisfies our deepest needs for a sense of purpose, meaning and how we're fitting into the Universal scheme of things. It's multi-domain and it follows the Hermetic edict, "As above, so below".

  • Boo says:

    Lowballing at 45mins : try a technique I saw on youtube (can't remember who) – when you are asked to work for free or very low rate in the hope of future work at a great rate … offer to work at your full rate now and promise to refund the difference when the promised gig comes through. Nobody ever takes the offer because the promised gig is never going to arrive.

  • Gayelene Bonenfant says:

    Crave intensity….gravitas!

  • Angela Rowland says:

    How does one grow and to be more aware and not be afraid in how to share yourself when people around you Interrupt you, not caring what you are trying to share. Makes a person not wanting to share and just listen for ever, but bursting of feeling alone. How does one break out of this and grow out of this.

  • Erica McKelvey says:

    Who else is listening covered in goosebumps? Humming nerve endings telling us to get IN THE FIGHT or resonate lower!

  • Molly Brawer says:

    LOVE LOVE LOVE. thank you chase and brene!!!! Love that you shared that you were going out to dinner 🙂

  • Mark Charlton says:

    If I ever doubt the world, I tune in to these podcasts and my heart sings. What a beautiful world we live in, to hold these heart-warming authentic conversations. Thanks! I'm glad to be alive right now! We live in an exciting time. "Fierce and kind, tough but tender"…true poetry….

  • Angie Taylor says:

    Thank you for affirming me as a Creative! …going through a divorce where my gift was diminished by opposing counsel, to being a "Hobbie" heaped even more pain on me, after being thrown under the bus by my husband who I was faithful to for over 25 years…

  • Stellar yoga Arts says:

    I’m Italian I make the best eggplant balls in the world ! they flavor the gravy like nothing else ! Thank you for your work it’s very powerful , Namaste 🙏

  • yshk viswanatham says:

    What can you do it I don't bother my self. Who I am you don't know 45 years yoga pranayam meditation experience 18 games and sports certificates all these created me what is my hard work do you study it what you learn it nothing to you have also some content is there exists why you feel I am wrong you are one person feel it worng no bother . It is you responsibility to clear my amount. Everything submitted to you why don't give gift value ? It is stuff your position you feel like that if you fail again. I can absolutely stop my work . Three years my effort value give it ..
    Yshk viswanatham MscBed.

  • yshk viswanatham says:

    How to look confident .it is very simple I don't depend on others. Then I will be confident ,three years work over next you work is fail to fail190 times I never my confidence not loss it I will be happy in my position your work is wrong way going my work is always positively. I fight out work to result when result is lingering then fight started ..yshk viswanatham MscBed.

  • yshk viswanatham says:

    If you don't understand people you created that statement . My beloved human allways support to me .last three years their understand is continuously work out .yshk viswanatham MscBed.

  • Angela R says:

    So fantastic! Love Brene's work as a starting point. We have a long way to go to encourage the lack of labels, the encouragement of creativity, the change for government that is shifting the society to a world of shame and lack. March for vulnerability and freedom

  • LINDA OZAG says:

    It's hard to tell they there will be a charge.

  • Be A. says:

    How cool. A Marianne Williamson ad before this show. Marianne and Brene are on the same path and course! Love Trump's hate.

  • Sue Pearson says:

    Serious: Grounded Gravitas, getting to the heart of something and sharing it with weight- embodying wisdom that has definitely been earned.

  • Carol George says:

    Oh I love this lady already!🌹and I am only 5 minutes in.

  • Victoria P says:

    It is amazing how different cultures speaking , meaning of the same use opposite words.

  • Gina Heaton says:

    I love Brene! I’m around people but I’m lonely.

  • Christie Lane says:

    'It's just that we hate the same people'. This is enlightenment? One man's shit show is another man's path to sovereignty. It's interesting to me that there is a contingent of people that will never see the soldier returning home from the second world war and those fighting for todays freedoms and sovereignty in the same light. I could well imagine none of todays 'enlightened' would be overly thrilled with yesteryears Sergeants that barked orders and saved the lives of soldiers by virtue of how they trained them with an iron fist to fight and win. Be glad that today's shit show is not a physical battle on the field but is being fought in elections and campaigns. It's the same battle. Just different weapons. We must always seek and honour the truth and not look at the characters barking the orders. They might one day be seen in the same light as the Generals and Sergeants on the battle fields of yesterday, protecting freedoms.

  • Marce K says:

    LOVE this. And so grateful to connect with what I love about art. To hear art be appreciated and its power and role acknowledged, in a time when it's being near eliminated from school curriculums, and basically considered a luxury, something separate from daily life. Creativity and expression are part and parcel of what it is to be human.

  • Sheila Mchgee says:

    My sister connected with me after many years but was slagging off another sister, I felt infuriated and later almost had a panic attack!
    Iv a biological family without any centre ( heart ) so no emotional connection/ involvement instead a mean petty and superficial experience every time!

  • jan weber says:

    I deeply appreciate and resonate with this interview and Brene. I am so confused how a super greedy, and exploitive man like Jeff Bezos is quoted by Chase as a guru. We need to look at a person's behavior in concert with their words. Bezos trains his staff to ignore ethics and do what is needed at Amazon to make money, regardless of the harm to customers/children. The workers are treated inhumanely at his businesses. Please use caution before you quote, it was a super turn off to his following words. Brene is so helpful and inspiring,

  • LJM says:

    This is exactly how I feel in my life: like I belong everywhere and I belong no where both true for my life.

  • LJM says:

    Art is homeopathic – expresses suffering and heals it at the same time.

  • Diana Flegal says:

    Grateful for this conversation. Thank you both. ❤️

  • Enat P says:

    So many thoughts when I listen to this. Putting myself in the role of the interviewer, it feels like Brene Brown has this need to hear "Wow, Amazing, that's profound" etc.. And very interesting coining of the phrase "creatives" and what an elite and incredibly gifted and enlightened group this is. Sorry… no matter how hard I try, I just can't get on the BB band wagon. There's the odd inspiring, thought provoking comment to be sure. I just dont get the craze.

  • Sharon Hutchinson - The Health Junkie says:

    Love this! Thank you for talking about charging for a service. I'm a newly certified Health Coach and totally get that.
    The story telling thing was so good. 🙏🏼🙏🏼✌🏻️

  • Nadia Johnson says:

    Wonderful interview

  • Eirene628 says:

    The best…simply the best!

  • Catherine Karena says:

    Excellent video – only off note for me was quoting Jeff Bezos, the dude is rich off the backs of the hard-working ill-paid poor.

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